Difference between revisions of "Category talk:Vertan Denizens"
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::::[[:Category:Historical Figures]] is not less concise; it's more accurate and consistent with the majority of Vertani not on Sapience now being in that category. And the more I think about [[:Category:Religion]] for [[Imperial Oracles]], the more it starts to make sense. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 16:32, 19 February 2008 (GMT) | ::::[[:Category:Historical Figures]] is not less concise; it's more accurate and consistent with the majority of Vertani not on Sapience now being in that category. And the more I think about [[:Category:Religion]] for [[Imperial Oracles]], the more it starts to make sense. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 16:32, 19 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
:::::By less concise I meant the dispersal of articles outside a clear category. The difference between Vertani categorized in Vertan Denizens and Historical Figures is that the ones in the former are still alive and the ones in the latter are dead (hence the definition of [[:Category:Historical Figures]]). [[User:Asara|Asara]] 20:04, 19 February 2008 (GMT) | :::::By less concise I meant the dispersal of articles outside a clear category. The difference between Vertani categorized in Vertan Denizens and Historical Figures is that the ones in the former are still alive and the ones in the latter are dead (hence the definition of [[:Category:Historical Figures]]). [[User:Asara|Asara]] 20:04, 19 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
::::::If you're going to assess the "conciseness" of categories that way, then [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]] means denizens specifically living in Vertan, and in the case of [[Drafaris]], who was exiled, that may not be an appropriate category for him at all, as his exile was likely from the Vertani community on Vertan. For [[Kadran]], we would also have to check for documentation saying he returned to his homeland. As for [[:Category:Historical Figures]], it is most certainly not limited solely to deceased denizens. Take Cherry and Garian, for example. They are not in an "alive" category anymore because there really is none suitable for them when it seems unlikely at the moment that we will ever see them again. No one really thinks, that after Rurin withdrew his wares, Cherry and Garian were murdered, their bodies hacked into pieces and thrown into a ditch. Likewise, many of the articles in Historical Figures don't even have recorded deaths, and the lack thereof could easily come back and bite us in the tushie, as demonstrated by Himalia; who could've guessed that any Offspring could still be alive today? Therefore, "Historical Figures" is not a category solely for the "confirmed dead", but rather also for anyone from the past who we're unlikely to ever see, or someone from the present who we've seen before but has disappeared and is unlikely to ever be seen again. Frankly, one could go make a | ::::::If you're going to assess the "conciseness" of categories that way, then [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]] means denizens specifically living in Vertan, and in the case of [[Drafaris]], who was exiled, that may not be an appropriate category for him at all, as his exile was likely from the Vertani community on Vertan. For [[Kadran]], we would also have to check for documentation saying he returned to his homeland. As for [[:Category:Historical Figures]], it is most certainly not limited solely to deceased denizens. Take Cherry and Garian, for example. They are not in an "alive" category anymore because there really is none suitable for them when it seems unlikely at the moment that we will ever see them again. No one really thinks, that after Rurin withdrew his wares, Cherry and Garian were murdered, their bodies hacked into pieces and thrown into a ditch. Likewise, many of the articles in Historical Figures don't even have recorded deaths, and the lack thereof could easily come back and bite us in the tushie, as demonstrated by Himalia; who could've guessed that any Offspring could still be alive today? Therefore, "Historical Figures" is not a category solely for the "confirmed dead", but rather also for anyone from the past who we're unlikely to ever see, or someone from the present who we've seen before but has disappeared and is unlikely to ever be seen again. Frankly, one could go make a Category:Missing Denizens if one desired... --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 20:44, 19 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
:No, "conciseness" does not imply your definition of [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]] and I'm not really sure how you arrived at this conclusion. At the moment the category is defined as "Vertani of the Vertan Empire" which does not assume these denizens live IN Vertan in as much that they are FROM, or a member of, Vertan. If you think the category should be re-named to "Vertani Denizens" rather than "Vertan Denizens", perhaps this is more accurate. I also wrote and defined the parameters of Historical Figures which I believe still less aptly define Kadran and Drafaris than them being Vertani Denizens. When I explained the current Vertani listed in Historical Figures as being dead, you extrapolated too far here also in assuming that being dead was the only qualification for -all- historical figures, even though I was speaking only of the Vertani. [[User:Asara|Asara]] 05:06, 20 February 2008 (GMT) | :No, "conciseness" does not imply your definition of [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]] and I'm not really sure how you arrived at this conclusion. At the moment the category is defined as "Vertani of the Vertan Empire" which does not assume these denizens live IN Vertan in as much that they are FROM, or a member of, Vertan. If you think the category should be re-named to "Vertani Denizens" rather than "Vertan Denizens", perhaps this is more accurate. I also wrote and defined the parameters of Historical Figures which I believe still less aptly define Kadran and Drafaris than them being Vertani Denizens. When I explained the current Vertani listed in Historical Figures as being dead, you extrapolated too far here also in assuming that being dead was the only qualification for -all- historical figures, even though I was speaking only of the Vertani. [[User:Asara|Asara]] 05:06, 20 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
: | ::Category:Vertani Denizens wouldn't solve the problem (since "Vertani" isn't a location), though a Category:Vertani might. Why wouldn't I assume [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]] specifically means someone living in Vertan? (I ignore the article description because it's not particularly descriptive; as far as it is concerned, all denizens in Tir Murann should then be in this category.) That is the exact convention in all other [[Category:<Place> Denizens]], i.e. denizens who live there, not originated from there. Just look at these articles as examples: [[Lukia DeGage]], [[Bewert]], [[Irilan]], [[Venasia Enverren]], [[Jitaka]], and all other "visiting" denizens and denizens that didn't grow up where they currently live. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 05:30, 20 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
:::If we change | :::If we change Category:Vertani Denizens to Category:Vertani, by default we would then have to move all Vertani from Historical Figures and Tir Murann into Vertani Denizens as well. (Which is fine if necessary...) You also may not necessarily assume [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]] specifically means someone living in Vertan for the other possibility I already previously stated. The reason for this is because not all [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] follow this outline as you insist, and unless the article description defines it at such, we cannot assume this is true (like for [[:Category:Vertan Denizens]]). Personally I wouldn't mind conforming them all to a consistent standard, but at the moment I am still not convinced that Kadran and Drafaris fit in Historical Denizens category as I have defined it. If you wish to change the prerequisites for this category, this is another matter entirely. [[User:Asara|Asara]] 20:01, 20 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
::::"'''Historical Figures''' are past figures who were neither [[denizen]] nor [[adventurer]], or '''those denizens or [[:category:creatures|creatures]] lost to history'''." They are lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise; that may happen, but unless you know for sure they'll be making an appearance again, they are only known for their historical roles now. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 21:04, 20 February 2008 (GMT) | ::::"'''Historical Figures''' are past figures who were neither [[denizen]] nor [[adventurer]], or '''those denizens or [[:category:creatures|creatures]] lost to history'''." They are lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise; that may happen, but unless you know for sure they'll be making an appearance again, they are only known for their historical roles now. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 21:04, 20 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
:::::Hm. I am thinking the problem lies in the understanding of "historical" in which I think the appointment of denizens as a "historic character" should have established permanency in never coming back. In other words, I think the exact opposite of what you state: they are NOT lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise - if they are definitively lost to history and have absolutely no potential of coming back, only then should they be historical. This is why those who don't fit this distinction can still be placed in the world; for Kadran and Drafaris, they are Vertan Denizens (albeit wandering, although we do have a Wandering Denizens category). Now I know a lot of the current denizens moved in there may not fit this subjectivity, but that's because I don't have 24/7 to police every single article in there and I'm not the only Head Chronicler. If we want yet another huge overhaul re-categorisation, I'm willing to listen, but we're going to need to be very careful... [[User:Asara|Asara]] 00:49, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | :::::Hm. I am thinking the problem lies in the understanding of "historical" in which I think the appointment of denizens as a "historic character" should have established permanency in never coming back. In other words, I think the exact opposite of what you state: they are NOT lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise - if they are definitively lost to history and have absolutely no potential of coming back, only then should they be historical. This is why those who don't fit this distinction can still be placed in the world; for Kadran and Drafaris, they are Vertan Denizens (albeit wandering, although we do have a Wandering Denizens category). Now I know a lot of the current denizens moved in there may not fit this subjectivity, but that's because I don't have 24/7 to police every single article in there and I'm not the only Head Chronicler. If we want yet another huge overhaul re-categorisation, I'm willing to listen, but we're going to need to be very careful... [[User:Asara|Asara]] 00:49, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
::::::Strictly speaking, that is a good plan, but frankly, it seems that very rarely is a denizen completely out of the running in terms of making a return. The three Ceylon denizens, for example, are a demonstration of this, and they don't even encompass the possibility for denizens who are confirmed "dead" to return as sentient "denizen" ghosts, etc. It is a lot easier to pull out seemingly (but not actually) historical denizens out of the "Historical Figures" category once they prove that the circulating rumours of their permanent departure have been exagerrated; compare that to figuring out right here and now for which denizens it would be -absolutely impossible- to return and then removing all others from the category, a hard task indeed. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 01:15, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | ::::::Strictly speaking, that is a good plan, but frankly, it seems that very rarely is a denizen completely out of the running in terms of making a return. The three Ceylon denizens, for example, are a demonstration of this, and they don't even encompass the possibility for denizens who are confirmed "dead" to return as sentient "denizen" ghosts, etc. It is a lot easier to pull out seemingly (but not actually) historical denizens out of the "Historical Figures" category once they prove that the circulating rumours of their permanent departure have been exagerrated; compare that to figuring out right here and now for which denizens it would be -absolutely impossible- to return and then removing all others from the category, a hard task indeed. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 01:15, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
If we're going to do that, we'd need to scrutinise and rework all the [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] categories then, but what a headache! Surely we spend more time recategorising than actually writing article content... =( [[User:Asara|Asara]] 05:53, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | If we're going to do that, we'd need to scrutinise and rework all the [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] categories then, but what a headache! Surely we spend more time recategorising than actually writing article content... =( [[User:Asara|Asara]] 05:53, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | ||
:Huh? What would we do that would require us to scrutinise and rework all those categories? --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 06:15, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | |||
:: Not all denizens categorized in respective [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] categories follow your format. If we are going to move Kadran and Drafaris, we'd need to follow suit with similar Denizen articles. [[User:Asara|Asara]] 14:07, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | |||
:::Like which ones? In any case, we don't have to make it into an active project; just correct an article whenever you passively notice something inconsistent with categorisation. --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 17:29, 21 February 2008 (GMT) | |||
::::What other denizen categories are you worried could be equally problematic? --[[User:Krypton|Krypton]] 00:54, 22 March 2008 (GMT) | |||
Latest revision as of 00:39, 9 February 2016
Necessary category? All articles within could be moved elsewhere. --Krypton 07:22, 18 February 2008 (GMT)
- Like where do you suggest? Asara 22:00, 18 February 2008 (GMT)
- Drafaris and Kadran in Category:Historical Figures. Not sure about Imperial Oracles.. Category:Organisations or Category:Government, whichever one is less of a stretch. --Krypton 01:09, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Maybe Category:Religion, too. --Krypton 13:23, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Eh, why move these articles to less concise and more "stretchy" category relationships? Asara 14:33, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Category:Historical Figures is not less concise; it's more accurate and consistent with the majority of Vertani not on Sapience now being in that category. And the more I think about Category:Religion for Imperial Oracles, the more it starts to make sense. --Krypton 16:32, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- By less concise I meant the dispersal of articles outside a clear category. The difference between Vertani categorized in Vertan Denizens and Historical Figures is that the ones in the former are still alive and the ones in the latter are dead (hence the definition of Category:Historical Figures). Asara 20:04, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- If you're going to assess the "conciseness" of categories that way, then Category:Vertan Denizens means denizens specifically living in Vertan, and in the case of Drafaris, who was exiled, that may not be an appropriate category for him at all, as his exile was likely from the Vertani community on Vertan. For Kadran, we would also have to check for documentation saying he returned to his homeland. As for Category:Historical Figures, it is most certainly not limited solely to deceased denizens. Take Cherry and Garian, for example. They are not in an "alive" category anymore because there really is none suitable for them when it seems unlikely at the moment that we will ever see them again. No one really thinks, that after Rurin withdrew his wares, Cherry and Garian were murdered, their bodies hacked into pieces and thrown into a ditch. Likewise, many of the articles in Historical Figures don't even have recorded deaths, and the lack thereof could easily come back and bite us in the tushie, as demonstrated by Himalia; who could've guessed that any Offspring could still be alive today? Therefore, "Historical Figures" is not a category solely for the "confirmed dead", but rather also for anyone from the past who we're unlikely to ever see, or someone from the present who we've seen before but has disappeared and is unlikely to ever be seen again. Frankly, one could go make a Category:Missing Denizens if one desired... --Krypton 20:44, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- By less concise I meant the dispersal of articles outside a clear category. The difference between Vertani categorized in Vertan Denizens and Historical Figures is that the ones in the former are still alive and the ones in the latter are dead (hence the definition of Category:Historical Figures). Asara 20:04, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Category:Historical Figures is not less concise; it's more accurate and consistent with the majority of Vertani not on Sapience now being in that category. And the more I think about Category:Religion for Imperial Oracles, the more it starts to make sense. --Krypton 16:32, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- Eh, why move these articles to less concise and more "stretchy" category relationships? Asara 14:33, 19 February 2008 (GMT)
- No, "conciseness" does not imply your definition of Category:Vertan Denizens and I'm not really sure how you arrived at this conclusion. At the moment the category is defined as "Vertani of the Vertan Empire" which does not assume these denizens live IN Vertan in as much that they are FROM, or a member of, Vertan. If you think the category should be re-named to "Vertani Denizens" rather than "Vertan Denizens", perhaps this is more accurate. I also wrote and defined the parameters of Historical Figures which I believe still less aptly define Kadran and Drafaris than them being Vertani Denizens. When I explained the current Vertani listed in Historical Figures as being dead, you extrapolated too far here also in assuming that being dead was the only qualification for -all- historical figures, even though I was speaking only of the Vertani. Asara 05:06, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
- Category:Vertani Denizens wouldn't solve the problem (since "Vertani" isn't a location), though a Category:Vertani might. Why wouldn't I assume Category:Vertan Denizens specifically means someone living in Vertan? (I ignore the article description because it's not particularly descriptive; as far as it is concerned, all denizens in Tir Murann should then be in this category.) That is the exact convention in all other [[Category:<Place> Denizens]], i.e. denizens who live there, not originated from there. Just look at these articles as examples: Lukia DeGage, Bewert, Irilan, Venasia Enverren, Jitaka, and all other "visiting" denizens and denizens that didn't grow up where they currently live. --Krypton 05:30, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
- If we change Category:Vertani Denizens to Category:Vertani, by default we would then have to move all Vertani from Historical Figures and Tir Murann into Vertani Denizens as well. (Which is fine if necessary...) You also may not necessarily assume Category:Vertan Denizens specifically means someone living in Vertan for the other possibility I already previously stated. The reason for this is because not all [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] follow this outline as you insist, and unless the article description defines it at such, we cannot assume this is true (like for Category:Vertan Denizens). Personally I wouldn't mind conforming them all to a consistent standard, but at the moment I am still not convinced that Kadran and Drafaris fit in Historical Denizens category as I have defined it. If you wish to change the prerequisites for this category, this is another matter entirely. Asara 20:01, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
- "Historical Figures are past figures who were neither denizen nor adventurer, or those denizens or creatures lost to history." They are lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise; that may happen, but unless you know for sure they'll be making an appearance again, they are only known for their historical roles now. --Krypton 21:04, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
- Hm. I am thinking the problem lies in the understanding of "historical" in which I think the appointment of denizens as a "historic character" should have established permanency in never coming back. In other words, I think the exact opposite of what you state: they are NOT lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise - if they are definitively lost to history and have absolutely no potential of coming back, only then should they be historical. This is why those who don't fit this distinction can still be placed in the world; for Kadran and Drafaris, they are Vertan Denizens (albeit wandering, although we do have a Wandering Denizens category). Now I know a lot of the current denizens moved in there may not fit this subjectivity, but that's because I don't have 24/7 to police every single article in there and I'm not the only Head Chronicler. If we want yet another huge overhaul re-categorisation, I'm willing to listen, but we're going to need to be very careful... Asara 00:49, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- Strictly speaking, that is a good plan, but frankly, it seems that very rarely is a denizen completely out of the running in terms of making a return. The three Ceylon denizens, for example, are a demonstration of this, and they don't even encompass the possibility for denizens who are confirmed "dead" to return as sentient "denizen" ghosts, etc. It is a lot easier to pull out seemingly (but not actually) historical denizens out of the "Historical Figures" category once they prove that the circulating rumours of their permanent departure have been exagerrated; compare that to figuring out right here and now for which denizens it would be -absolutely impossible- to return and then removing all others from the category, a hard task indeed. --Krypton 01:15, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- Hm. I am thinking the problem lies in the understanding of "historical" in which I think the appointment of denizens as a "historic character" should have established permanency in never coming back. In other words, I think the exact opposite of what you state: they are NOT lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise - if they are definitively lost to history and have absolutely no potential of coming back, only then should they be historical. This is why those who don't fit this distinction can still be placed in the world; for Kadran and Drafaris, they are Vertan Denizens (albeit wandering, although we do have a Wandering Denizens category). Now I know a lot of the current denizens moved in there may not fit this subjectivity, but that's because I don't have 24/7 to police every single article in there and I'm not the only Head Chronicler. If we want yet another huge overhaul re-categorisation, I'm willing to listen, but we're going to need to be very careful... Asara 00:49, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- "Historical Figures are past figures who were neither denizen nor adventurer, or those denizens or creatures lost to history." They are lost to history until they prove themselves otherwise; that may happen, but unless you know for sure they'll be making an appearance again, they are only known for their historical roles now. --Krypton 21:04, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
- If we change Category:Vertani Denizens to Category:Vertani, by default we would then have to move all Vertani from Historical Figures and Tir Murann into Vertani Denizens as well. (Which is fine if necessary...) You also may not necessarily assume Category:Vertan Denizens specifically means someone living in Vertan for the other possibility I already previously stated. The reason for this is because not all [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] follow this outline as you insist, and unless the article description defines it at such, we cannot assume this is true (like for Category:Vertan Denizens). Personally I wouldn't mind conforming them all to a consistent standard, but at the moment I am still not convinced that Kadran and Drafaris fit in Historical Denizens category as I have defined it. If you wish to change the prerequisites for this category, this is another matter entirely. Asara 20:01, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
- Category:Vertani Denizens wouldn't solve the problem (since "Vertani" isn't a location), though a Category:Vertani might. Why wouldn't I assume Category:Vertan Denizens specifically means someone living in Vertan? (I ignore the article description because it's not particularly descriptive; as far as it is concerned, all denizens in Tir Murann should then be in this category.) That is the exact convention in all other [[Category:<Place> Denizens]], i.e. denizens who live there, not originated from there. Just look at these articles as examples: Lukia DeGage, Bewert, Irilan, Venasia Enverren, Jitaka, and all other "visiting" denizens and denizens that didn't grow up where they currently live. --Krypton 05:30, 20 February 2008 (GMT)
If we're going to do that, we'd need to scrutinise and rework all the [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] categories then, but what a headache! Surely we spend more time recategorising than actually writing article content... =( Asara 05:53, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- Huh? What would we do that would require us to scrutinise and rework all those categories? --Krypton 06:15, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- Not all denizens categorized in respective [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] categories follow your format. If we are going to move Kadran and Drafaris, we'd need to follow suit with similar Denizen articles. Asara 14:07, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- Like which ones? In any case, we don't have to make it into an active project; just correct an article whenever you passively notice something inconsistent with categorisation. --Krypton 17:29, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- What other denizen categories are you worried could be equally problematic? --Krypton 00:54, 22 March 2008 (GMT)
- Like which ones? In any case, we don't have to make it into an active project; just correct an article whenever you passively notice something inconsistent with categorisation. --Krypton 17:29, 21 February 2008 (GMT)
- Not all denizens categorized in respective [[Category:<Place> Denizens]] categories follow your format. If we are going to move Kadran and Drafaris, we'd need to follow suit with similar Denizen articles. Asara 14:07, 21 February 2008 (GMT)