Talk:Lucretian Athenaeum

As to the latest changes, HELP THERA indicates that the Lucretian Athenaeaum is "Sapience's most extensive library." It's important to keep in mind that the number of adventurer journals and manuscripts that can be checked out is not the entire collection of books in a library, just as there are more citizens in a city than there are denizens. We should assume that the help file is an authoritative source here and that the Athenaeum is the largest library on Sapience. --Laorir 19:18, 03 June 2024 (GMT)

Agreed. HELP THERA is also what I sourced when originally making the change. And another reminder that my original point of contention was not "city libraries are not considered libraries", but rather about if they should be considered public. --Eoka 21:27, 03 June 2024 (GMT)

Please take this opportunity to directly cite whatever policy you think is being violated, Asmodron. I will take the opportunity to once again cite the disclaimer listed below every single post on the AchaeaWiki: "Please note that all contributions to AchaeaWiki may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not submit it here." I also direct you to the AchaeaWiki:Contributing Guidelines where you will find no protections given for "not being able to delete things without the express approval of the administration". The administration provides LIMITED oversight to "protected" pages, which this page is not. Finally, we can have a civil discussion about differences in opinion about lore, but only if you do not immediately jump to involving the administration about policy that does not exist. Make your statements here and we can work this out like independent adults. Please read the above two comments for why the original edit was made. --Eoka, 14:09, 05 June 2024, (GMT)

The Athenaeum was at one point indeed the "most extensive library", however that help scroll has not been updated since god knows how long. A typo can be submitted to review if needed. The Athenaeum has also gone through some disastrous times that reduced its volumes. I believe it was an event that involved a golem that was animated from many of the books there that had to be destroyed and left debris and burnt pages everywhere. Players would then try to dig through the debris to find any possible surviving books (I was there for this event, and most of the time in the piles of burnt pages and rubble, the books were unable to be salvaged).

I admit though I find it confusing that Eoka is now claiming that the HELP THERA scroll was the reason all along that she made the edit, when her edit note clearly states "City libraries are not considered public due to the ability to restrict access". That aside, once the Citadel of Prosperity was fully constructed, it had been stated or implied by not only players but also by controlled NPCs and God-players over time that Hashan had the largest library on the continent. At this point it falls short of an Accolade which I will look into later to try and cement this. Naturally this claim can be debated, however stating "city libraries dont count for the public" within a game based on lore and the relevance and interactions of players and their cities to the game is frankly asinine.

Finally, as per Wiki policies, let us start from the top:

- "Any character who has played at least 300 hours can contribute to the wiki" - Any player may contribute to the wiki so long as they meet the minimum requirement. Seeking to deny a player the ability to contribute on the basis of "personal opinion" is not in the spirit of this policy. A player has the right to contribute and add, and no singular player has the right to deny that claim, no matter what basis of power they believe they hold. The disclaimer "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly" is based on the upkeep of the Wiki, not in the denial of other players.

- "This is a compendium of all the facts related to Achaea, so make sure you remain objective in tone and phrasing" - By attempting to use personal based opinions to edit not only this scroll but other scrolls, such as "staff powers dont belong here", is not in the spirit of remaining objective. It also removed the ability to allow discussions between the players of what is and is not to be added.

- Finally "The same rules go here as for the Forums". As per the forum rules, if you have a disagreement with what a player has said and cannot find common ground (of which you Eoka completely ignored the attempt of common ground and immediately went for the offense), then you contact an administrator.

With this said, if the issue is mainly with the use of the phrase "public" library, then I am willing to adjust it to state the Lucretian Athenaeaum is the largest non-city based library. That way it keeps its claim of largest and the idea of neutrality in terms of faction, but also doesnt take away from the player commitment and RP of their own city libraries. --Asmodron, 15:12, 05 June 2024, (GMT)

You can speak to me directly, this isn't like in ISSUES where you are appealing to administration. We're just talking. I'm fine with the caveat added of non-city library to the page as a resolution to this conflict of lore. My saying I "sourced" it was me explaining own personal reasoning, in agreement with Laorir, for making the edit and putting the summary of said edit as I did. This isn't a court case where every action and word needs to be argued over and intent should be scrutinised. I recommend we BOTH refrain from making things personal or hostile, when this site is ultimately about maintaining as close to objective truth in lore/canon as possible. I have no official power here, and neither do you, so speaking with the gravitas of authority should be avoided by both of us.

Now to the policy discussion: you stated with authority that me disagreeing with you and removing your edits was "in violation of IRE policy", which is just not true and you have no way of possibly knowing. I cited directly the actual policy that allows anyone to "edit, alter, or *REMOVE*" at any time for any reason, which was a right I freely exercised when originally reverting your changes. You are well within your rights to do the same, though this avenue should have been taken first. I admit I should have gone here first as well instead of putting my reasoning in the summary section. You also just said "it's not in the spirit of the policy", which is you assigning personal judgement and opinion to clearly stated rules. You said the same thing to Jonathin's editing of pages when you undid them, essentially doing to his edits what I did to yours. Finally, you did not even once attempt to find common ground before jumping right to policy violation on both the Jonathin edits AND my reverting of yours. All contributors should do our best not to take edits personally or as a dig about what one person does or does not know. The Wiki is an open-source discussion forum.

I will wait for your opinions on the Staff Powers to be put in the correct discussion page to respond, and instead end on this. My reverting your edits was not personal at all: I don't care who is making edits, I care if they contain information I believe to be wrong, and am open to discussion about. "Submitting a case to IRE for a ruling on policy violation" will only lessen our freedoms here by forcing them to step in or limit editing powers. That limitation is not in the best interest of the Wiki, in my opinion. --Eoka, 15:47, 05 June 2024, (GMT)

I think it might make sense to just remove the superlative if it's going to be controversial. Maybe "one of the largest libraries in Sapience". --Laorir 17:13, 05 June 2024 (GMT)

Agreed then. Discussions first before back and forth edits. As for Jonathin's edit, that is another story which I will address as needed. I am good with either "one of the largest libraries" or "largest non-city based". In terms of which city has the largest library, I can see that this is likely to cause some contention, so probably sticking with "one of the largest libraries" to their descriptions may be best, unless something is stated officially in the game. --User:Asmodron 17:13, 05 June 2024