Difference between revisions of "Category talk:Humgii"
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:::When I've figured out a convincing way to make my case, I will! :D And yes, the very fact that animals may be sentient is what I'm driving at here: Humgii are sentient yet HELP HUMGII calls them animals, two facts we cannot easily discard. ~[[User:Soludra|Soludra]] 23:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC) | :::When I've figured out a convincing way to make my case, I will! :D And yes, the very fact that animals may be sentient is what I'm driving at here: Humgii are sentient yet HELP HUMGII calls them animals, two facts we cannot easily discard. ~[[User:Soludra|Soludra]] 23:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC) | ||
::::The fact that humgiis are flagged as sentient is, in and of itself, probably a minor bug (barring cases in which organisational humgiis have progs that might be triggered by tells). They don't say anything on their own, and the default ones actually have signs around their necks to get their point across. On a somewhat related note, dolphins and unicorns are animals and flagged as sentient, but I would not be willing to classify them under [[:Category:Denizen races]]. In fact, you'll note that the [[Unicorns|"Unicorns" article]] is specifically categorised in [[:Category:Creatures]]. Classing all sentient creatures under a "Sentient creatures" category as I originally proposed, whether a "race" or not, would be ideal in my view. -{{User:Delphinus/sig1}} 00:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC) | ::::The fact that humgiis are flagged as sentient is, in and of itself, probably a minor bug (barring cases in which organisational humgiis have progs that might be triggered by tells). They don't say anything on their own, and the default ones actually have signs around their necks to get their point across. On a somewhat related note, dolphins and unicorns are animals and flagged as sentient, but I would not be willing to classify them under [[:Category:Denizen races]]. In fact, you'll note that the [[Unicorns|"Unicorns" article]] is specifically categorised in [[:Category:Creatures]]. Classing all sentient creatures under a "Sentient creatures" category as I originally proposed, whether a "race" or not, would be ideal in my view. -{{User:Delphinus/sig1}} 00:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC) | ||
:For Soludra: I think that if you really wanted to take a serious crack at the current definition, you'd have to first discuss the matter of sentience before determining the Achaean connotations of "animal" with regards to sentience. I still don't quite see how the -possibility- of animals being sentient, when we know that not all animals are sentient, warrants categorizing all creatures as sentient, i.e. denizens. Under the current understanding, if you wanted to categorize denizens under creatures instead, humgii would still be categorized as denizens according to the "Lowest Common Denominator" category rule. [[User:Asara|Asara]] 00:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC) | |||
:For Delphinus: What of Maya's acknowledgment of humgii sentience? Also, if some unicorns are flagged as sentient, then that should be reflected by categorizing the unicorns article under denizens as well as creatures with our current policy. Unfortunately you'll also note that the working definition for the Denizen races category is differentiated from others via being "humanoid", so dolphins and unicorns would not be (and are not) classified under such already. [[User:Asara|Asara]] 00:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 00:18, 12 September 2008
As per the topic on the forums, I'll be reverting these to Category:Denizens again, but I want to hold off until we know whether Humgii should be both Denizen and Domesticated animal. Regardless of how Creatures' and Denizens' articles declare themselves mutually exclusive, I think Humgii are the exception. Just waiting on posts/comments here/there, that way we don't have to do twice as many edits... ~Soludra 04:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, technically speaking, that would open up quite a definitional conundrum... Asara 12:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Howso? I checked, and HELP DENIZENS makes it pretty clear that what we categorize here as creatures are still denizens. Maybe we should subcategorize Creatures under Denizens? ~Soludra 16:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I disagree. Way back when we originally discussed the difference between denizen and creature, we agreed that HELP DENIZENS did not undermine our description (ours, instead, perhaps clarifies it.). A worm can be a denizen certainly if it accepts tells and speaks, for example. Using sentience as the determining factor is straightfoward, easily verifiable, and seems to work clearly and well. Thus putting Creatures under Denizens would afford a property to beings we've categorized as creatures that is not true. Take a look at the Category:Denizens article for our working definition. Asara 17:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Aye, yet from HELP HUMGII: "Cute little animals with voracious appetites." Personally I'm not sure I see a problem with changing our definition of what Denizens are, unless it be the work involved. Don't a lot of people call pretty much everything non-adventurer a denizen anyways? ~Soludra 17:44, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Would you rather have Denizens be a subcategory of Creatures? I actually think that might work best. >_> ~Soludra 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately I disagree. Way back when we originally discussed the difference between denizen and creature, we agreed that HELP DENIZENS did not undermine our description (ours, instead, perhaps clarifies it.). A worm can be a denizen certainly if it accepts tells and speaks, for example. Using sentience as the determining factor is straightfoward, easily verifiable, and seems to work clearly and well. Thus putting Creatures under Denizens would afford a property to beings we've categorized as creatures that is not true. Take a look at the Category:Denizens article for our working definition. Asara 17:23, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Animals" does not mutually exclude sentience (sentience can be purchased for pets after all), and you would have to provide explanation for the tells contradiction (I refer to what Krypton provided) to fit your new definition. Similarly, public perception/lingo may not necessarily verify fact (e.g. everyone calling abilities "skills".) However, if you are interested in contesting/changing current established policy, please feel free to make a poll on the forums with these explanations. =) Asara 19:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- When I've figured out a convincing way to make my case, I will! :D And yes, the very fact that animals may be sentient is what I'm driving at here: Humgii are sentient yet HELP HUMGII calls them animals, two facts we cannot easily discard. ~Soludra 23:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that humgiis are flagged as sentient is, in and of itself, probably a minor bug (barring cases in which organisational humgiis have progs that might be triggered by tells). They don't say anything on their own, and the default ones actually have signs around their necks to get their point across. On a somewhat related note, dolphins and unicorns are animals and flagged as sentient, but I would not be willing to classify them under Category:Denizen races. In fact, you'll note that the "Unicorns" article is specifically categorised in Category:Creatures. Classing all sentient creatures under a "Sentient creatures" category as I originally proposed, whether a "race" or not, would be ideal in my view. -Delphinus @ 00:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- When I've figured out a convincing way to make my case, I will! :D And yes, the very fact that animals may be sentient is what I'm driving at here: Humgii are sentient yet HELP HUMGII calls them animals, two facts we cannot easily discard. ~Soludra 23:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Howso? I checked, and HELP DENIZENS makes it pretty clear that what we categorize here as creatures are still denizens. Maybe we should subcategorize Creatures under Denizens? ~Soludra 16:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- For Soludra: I think that if you really wanted to take a serious crack at the current definition, you'd have to first discuss the matter of sentience before determining the Achaean connotations of "animal" with regards to sentience. I still don't quite see how the -possibility- of animals being sentient, when we know that not all animals are sentient, warrants categorizing all creatures as sentient, i.e. denizens. Under the current understanding, if you wanted to categorize denizens under creatures instead, humgii would still be categorized as denizens according to the "Lowest Common Denominator" category rule. Asara 00:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- For Delphinus: What of Maya's acknowledgment of humgii sentience? Also, if some unicorns are flagged as sentient, then that should be reflected by categorizing the unicorns article under denizens as well as creatures with our current policy. Unfortunately you'll also note that the working definition for the Denizen races category is differentiated from others via being "humanoid", so dolphins and unicorns would not be (and are not) classified under such already. Asara 00:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)